Podcast: UN Sustainable Development Goals, Episode 3, Equality

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Tula: Hello, I'm Tula ...

Tula: ... and I'm Max.

Tula: ... and in this podcast, we are going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number five: Gender Equality, and goal number 10: Reduce Inequalities. The UN has stated different targets, for example, to end all forms of discrimination against all women and girls everywhere, and, in relation to goal number 10, to – by 2030 – empower and promote the social, economic, and political inclusion of all, irrespective of age, sex, disability, race, ethnicity, origin, religion, economic, or other status.

Max: OK, these goals seem somewhat different, I think. The inequality goal and the gender goal ...

Tula: Yes, they are different. It's about inequality in general, I guess.

Max: When you started talking about gender inequality, I was reminded of another episode I had while I was in India. Towards the end of my trip, I was in the south of India with a female friend of mine, and we'd been together for more or less the entire trip. And she hadn't really been by herself at all because we were recommended by both Norwegians and Indians that we stick together, at least in the evening and the night. However, one evening she was going to walk by herself and get some groceries at our local store. And I'd done this several times by myself, even in the evening and the night without having any uncomfortable experiences. She did this one time, and when she was walking towards the store, she was approached by a very unpleasant man who said quite uncomfortable things to her. Everything was OK, and she managed to get back to where we lived fine and nothing too dramatic happened. But that absolutely really made an impact on her and made an impact on me. Even though we were told that she shouldn't walk by herself, we thought that one small walk to the grocery store wouldn't really matter. After this, I really realized the gender inequality that currently exists in the majority of India, and we saw this mainly in the rural areas but also in some of the larger cities. And it really made me think that sometimes, in Norway, and probably especially as a man, we take a situation for granted.

Tula: I think so, too. What you said sounds very unfair. And sadly, I’ve heard many stories like this before. Did you ever feel afraid or uncomfortable being in the role of a protector or somewhat responsible for your friend?

Max: I don't think I was particularly afraid. It was more weird and more abnormal, really. I didn't really feel as if I had to protect her or guard her in any special way, because we'd never really been thinking like this before. And the fact that I kind of had to walk her to the store felt weird because I see us as equal. And in Norway, we were treated more equal ...

Tula: That would not happen ...

Max: Yes, exactly. And it definitely caught me off guard a little bit. It definitely made me think, at least, and often even in broad daylight, if we were in stores, she could also get uncomfortable remarks or looks. If we were to buy something at a shop from a man, he would almost always refer to me and talk to me.

Tula: Even though you're supposed to buy a dress or a skirt?

Max: Yes, actually! And then it was as if I was the one in charge and the one paying and I had most of the control, which really seemed weird, in my opinion. And if we met women, this situation was turned as well. Then they would always refer to her, and they wouldn't really look too much at me either, which really was something I thought was weird at least.

Tula: I think India is a great example of a country where gender inequality exists. Recently I watched a Swedish documentary series from India, and in this series they stated that you will never find more than 20 percent of women in a public space. And that in India, there are specific buses and trains for women only. These rules are in many cases respected by men, but sometimes we see that men don't respect these rules. I think we do see a positive shift these days as well in India, because many young Indian women are challenging these boundaries, and they have tried different specific social experiments, such as: the women in this series tried to lie down in the park without being greeted by unpleasant men, for example.

Max: In daylight?

Tula: Yes, they tried to sleep or tried to read a book or something very normal. We now see a positive change, because there are many demonstrations and stuff like that.

Max: That's interesting. And I wasn't aware of this experiment. However, I definitely noticed that there is inequality in India now.

Tula: Did you notice that there were less women in the public spaces?

Max: I didn't really think that much about it. But when you say it, I suppose usually in the main squares in a lot of cities and towns, there were usually men. I didn’t think that much about it, actually. I also learnt, while I was in India, that especially in rural communities, gender roles are more connected to a traditional way of life. They are often closely linked to religion, history, and culture. Therefore, women have had a different place in the home, as the mother of the children. I remember at least one woman explaining to me how it doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative thing with the more traditional gender roles. Even though for me and for my friend it seemed very weird, and I probably looked upon this as negative. But I'm not completely sure that all of the women in India did.

Tula: It's important that we respect other cultures. But even though we have to respect these cultures, oppression and discrimination in any forms is always wrong and bad and should be eradicated.

Max: I completely agree with you too. And I'm not really trying to defend any forms of gender oppression. It was more that it was explained to me that it doesn't always have to be a negative thing, and it's often more closely linked to culture and history than we might be aware of. Though I do believe that ending gender oppression should be a goal for all countries, regardless of both culture and history. And I think that the recent change we've seen in a lot of European countries is very positive. For example, the fact that we currently have a female prime minister and foreign minister is something that I find very cool.

Tula: And the fun thing with this that we have seen during this pandemic is that the countries with female leaders have actually dealt with the pandemic the best, such as Denmark, Germany, and Norway.

Max: I actually haven't thought about that link. Yes, that is a good point. At the faculty at my university, there was also a significant overweight of women, which is a very positive thing. I'm sure that in the future we'll see this represented in work life later as well.

Tula: Like more female leaders or bosses.

Max: It would make sense with regard to the fact that there are so many women taking higher levels of education.

Tula: Yes, and access to higher education is one of the main factors in reducing inequality in a society, and not just between genders but also between different social groups. Having said that, I think we cannot avoid talking about goal number 10, which is about reducing inequality in general.

Max: OK, and what will that consist of?

Tula: We have for example economic inequality. Especially relative inequality has been slightly reduced globally over the last years. And the economy is growing stronger in a lot of former developing countries, and things are going in the right direction. Still, we see huge differences within a lot of countries, and there's still much left to be done. This also reminds me a lot of your story from India, Max, where you could see the huge divide in Dharavi.

Max: That's definitely a good point. Mumbai is a good example where we saw vast economic inequality, very close and within the same city, which definitely puts it into perspective. However, this isn't only a problem in India. We can see the same in a lot of countries in the world and in the U.S. as well … and in Norway, in fact. I remember a couple of years ago, there was a lot of discussion about the top one percent in the United States and how they owned about 40 percent of the nation's wealth, how poorly distributed the nation's wealth was, and how difficult this would also make it for the relatively poor to climb the social ladder in that sense.

Tula: Yeah, I think so, too.

Max: We can also see a sort of similar situation in Norway, as a lot of people have stated that inequality in Norway is growing as well – as we talked about previously.

Tula: Yes, where your financial background has much more to say.

Max: Exactly, and that's also a typical argument that is used for the welfare state that we see in a lot of Scandinavian countries where the country helps fund your education, for example.

Tula: And access to cheap college education in Norway in many ways ensures that financial background isn't as important as it is in other countries. For example, the United States, where it seems as though your parent’s money becomes a lot more important.

Max: And I suppose if your parents pay for it, they'll probably have more of a say in your choice of education as well, maybe?

Tula: Yes, I think so, too. I also think it can create a weird relationship between parents and children, where the child kind of owes their parents to take a higher education.

Max: Could you relate to this?

Tula: For me, no. Because we live in Norway, we have different arrangements such as Lånekassen, which ensures that it's easy for me to choose an education that feels right for me – not right for my parents.

Max: I think the same goes for me as well. And for example, with me taking a gap year and being able to travel, it is also a privilege that I have. Probably also because my parents weren't able to stop me from doing it, perhaps. They originally were slightly against the idea, but it wasn't really up to them to make that decision. Now I'm studying, and I also rely on Lånekassen, and that probably makes them less involved in that decision.

Tula: Yes, and less concerned. It creates a more independent lifestyle for students.

Max: I actually remember an episode of Sånn er du by Harald Eia that I watched recently. He was talking a little bit about this situation, because he claimed that the role of the parent in Norway is very different from, let's say, the US, or India for that matter. Because the child doesn't really belong to the parent to the same extent. And they don't, as you said, owe their parents much of anything, really. And because the government can fund and help children, your family situation doesn't matter as much. And then, for instance, he came with an example that when they were making the American version of the Norwegian show Skam, they had to rewrite the script so that the parents were more involved in the story, because it seemed completely unrealistic to a lot of Americans that teenagers lived so independently from their parents.

Tula: I also watched that episode with Harald Eia, where he also stated that Norwegians being so independent is also an explanation for Norwegians being shy – or seem to be shy. It's just that we don't want to mind other people with our business.

Max: It is a good point, actually. It might be hard to say, which is better, I think. In a lot of ways, I think that some of the families I saw in India seemed very fond of each other, at least. And they seem to have a very good family relationship.

Tula: And it seems very cozy – for example Italian families with their grandparents and stuff, and they make pasta and pizza. It's kind of generalising, but it seems very cozy.

Max: I also talked about this, because when parents grow old in Norway, it isn't as normal for them to, as you said they do in Italy, move in with their children. They would be more likely to move into an elderly home. Which is also usually funded by the state. So then again, the parent kind of becomes the responsibility of the government, and the child still lives relatively independently from their parent.

Tula: Yes, and then again doesn't owe their parents to take care of them ...

Max: ... which sounds good. I suppose it can also be a little bit sad if you have old parents and they're alone in the retirement home. The families in India – or in Italy, for that matter – seem more connected and perhaps happier in that sense.

Tula: Yes, socially, it could be problematic, I think.

Max: Definitely.

Tula: To conclude, we can say that the views on gender roles and equality differ depending on country and culture. However, reducing inequality is a positive thing, and we feel as though that is the future.