Sustainable Development Goals

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Max: Hi, I'm Max ...

Tula: ... and I'm Tula

Max: ... and in this podcast, we're lucky enough to talk to a man from Framtiden i våre hender (The future in our hands), Christoffer Ringnes Klyve. He is here to help us find some answers and perhaps even conclusions to our previous discussions in the earlier episodes. And we will be talking about the topics: climate change, poverty, and gender equality and general equality, as we talked about previously.

Tula: I have a question for you, Christoffer. What do you think Norway can do to help developing countries fight poverty?

Christoffer: Well, Norway is already doing some really good things that it should continue doing, such as providing generous development assistance to the poorest countries – something we do quite well, actually. But on the other hand, there are things that Norway should stop doing, as it does impact poverty currently. We are a major contributor to climate change, and in the present and future, scientists expect that global warming will be one of the greatest obstacles to alleviating poverty in the world. So simply by stopping emissions, Norway will also contribute to reducing poverty.

Tula: But as a nation, or do we do more as individuals that is negative for the climate?

Christoffer: Well, both. Norway is a democratic country, so what we do as individuals and as a nation ¬¬– these are very closely linked. Obviously, there are some things that is the responsibility of the national government, or the local government, where we as citizens have an influence as voters or as active participants in the democracy. But it also matters what each individual does through our consumption and the choices that we make in our everyday lives.

Max: That's interesting. You know, in one of our previous episodes, we were talking about the concept of quotas on air travel. So, as you were talking about with the political change, that perhaps the government would be able to restrict us to only certain amounts of flight per year – what do you think of this concept?

Christoffer: I think it's a very interesting idea. It could actually work quite well in practice, because currently the emissions from aviation come from a very small proportion of the population globally. I think maybe one percent of the population contributes more than half of the emissions. That is because some people fly very often, and most people in the world never fly. So, restricting the absolute number of flights that people can take is a way to reduce that problem.

Tula: But do you think these flying quotas can contribute to a greater class divide in the society?

Christoffer: Well, actually, I think it's the opposite. I think quotas are a more fair and equal way of allocating flight options for people, because the alternative is to use taxes. You could have very high taxes on flights, but that would mean that the richest people would still be able to fly, because they have enough money to pay the taxes. Poorer people will have much less opportunities to pay for expensive air tickets.

Max: Do you feel the philosophy would be a negative restriction of our freedom, perhaps in the future, if we wouldn’t be able to travel and, let’s say, enjoy life to the same extent as we might have been doing?

Christoffer: Yes, absolutely. It would be a negative restriction. But that’s the sort of the basic problem of liberty, in a sense. If my freedoms and me exercising my freedoms mean that other people will have limits on their freedoms, that's where my freedoms should stop. So, there is no absolute freedom to generate pollution, because that generates negative effects for other people and for other parts of the ecosystem. So, it's not really a problem, necessarily, to restrict someone's freedoms if it's done for the right reasons.

Tula: So, it's good in the long run, you’d say?

Christoffer: Yes, and that's what democracy is all about.

Tula: Do you have any alternative transportations or tips for people who want to travel and avoid travelling with airplanes?

Christoffer: Well, yes, there are several. People really do want to go on holiday and to explore. But I think the first question to ask is: Where do you really need to go? Do you really need to travel 10,000 kilometres to experience something new and exotic? Or could you explore other Nordic countries, or Germany, or France, or some of the great Eastern European countries that are much closer and much more accessible and possible to reach without flying?

Tula: And the alternative is to travel by train?

Christoffer: Yes, and there are train connections to all our neighbouring countries and all across Europe. As long as you find your way to the continent, the trains are generally much better and faster than what we are used to in Norway as well. And it's a great way to travel, because you see so much more than these airports that look the same all over the place anyway. I’ll recommend train travel if you want to go on holiday in Norway as well. It's really a good option now to go buy an electric car, and it’s emissions free. The cars are becoming good enough to reach all around the country, and they're changing infrastructure. It's really a good way to see your own country and the neighbouring countries.

Tula: We were actually discussing the production of electric cars and how the battery is made of a material called cobalt. Do you know about that, and what are your thoughts on this?

Christoffer: Yes, and there are other minerals as well. It's a big problem that those minerals are being mined in countries like the Congo, where there is child labour and generally very poor supervision of labour conditions, and local environmental problems connected with the mining. But this is a problem for all sorts of consumer goods, including traditional cars. It's not a problem exclusive to electric vehicles. There are some studies that suggest that some of these stories about these child miners in Congo are being promoted by the fossil fuel industry to undermine the adoption of electric cars. So, one needs to be very critical of some of those stories as well. But it is a real problem, and it should be dealt with. The good thing is that there are other ways of producing the batteries for electric vehicles, and there is really rapid technological development in that area. The car company Tesla recently announced that they will start producing batteries without cobalt in the near future. So, in the coming years, I expect that this problem will also be reduced.

Max: We were discussing previously that in our roles as consumers and private people, it can sometimes be somewhat challenging to know what are good things to do or sustainable choices to make, such as with electric cars. Usually we've been told that it is good to drive an electric car, while we've seen that there are also negative aspects to it. Do you have any specific things in mind that you think we can do as consumers?

Christoffer: Yes, I could give you a very long list of such things, but I think the key is to not try to swallow too much to begin with. There are some really simple things that are fairly uncontroversial, and that are definitely good for the environment. We talked about transportation. So, anything without emissions is good. Anything that doesn't require you to travel too far is also good. In other areas, like what you eat, anything with lots of plants and not so much meat is generally better than the opposite. And there are basic other things like saving energy, not using too many resources, throwing things away that you still can use – those kinds of things that are fairlystraightforward and not very complicated. But for all of these things, and for any other tips or hints that you get about how to live a sustainable life, there will always be some strange corner of the internet where you will find the opposite view. It can sometimes be sponsored by the fossil fuel industry, or it can be just some old persons in their basement having googled their way into some strange type of information. So, generally, it’s a good idea to look for credible sources and to look for ideas that have been scientifically proven, and not just some dude who saw something on YouTube that he felt matched his predispositions.

Tula: I've actually seen on your website that you recommend eating less meat and going over to a vegetarian diet. What are your key tips for someone who wants to eat less meat?

Christoffer: Well, my key tip is to not make it too complicated to begin with. I mean, the best thing for the climate is to have a completely vegan diet. The next best thing is to have a vegetarian diet, for those who know the difference. But the more accessible option for most people is to simply have a flexible diet, but to eat less meat than they did the week before. So, maybe remove some of the meat from your dish and add some more vegetables. That's probably good for your health as well. And generally, do not try to make an enormous lifestyle change, because experience shows us that most people who try to make very big changes, they end up not really succeeding, and then they go back to their old normal. But making smaller changes is usually easier and less of a sacrifice and also much easier to get used to and to adopt new habits.

Tula: As you probably know, we're in a state of emergency with this COVID-19 virus. Do you think that this pandemic is putting our climate actions on hold?

Christoffer: Well, it's both yes and no, I would say. The good news is that the current crisis is forcing us into new habits that are generally better for the environment. We don't travel as much, and we stay more at home, which, even if we dislike it, it’s actually good for the environment. So, the projections for emissions in 2020 seem to be much lower than the previous years. It will be the first year in a long time where emissions actually go down. So, in isolation, that's good news. But this is not the proper way to solve the climate crisis. It all matters how you respond, and the countries are behaving quite differently in how they respond to the crisis. The European Union has responded quite well and said that they commit to staying on course and continue with their quite ambitious green policies. The United States seem to go in the right direction as well with the election of Joe Biden as president. So, we can expect more positive climate policies from there as well. Norway is more mixed, I would say. One of the first things that the government did after the crisis hit was to give a big tax package to the oil industry, which is not very forward looking, even though it can save some jobs in the short run. I think the Norwegian government needs to do much more and to have a much more ambitious, integrated way of addressing the crisis, though.

Max: These are very good points you’re making. Could you perhaps explain to us how you feel the current gender equality situation is in Norway?

Christoffer: Well, compared to both the past in Norway and most other countries, it's fairly good in Norway. In politics, for instance, it's very well established now that women and men have equal roles, and we are very used to seeing prominent politicians of both genders. There are other areas where we still have some ways to go, such as in the economic sphere. Women still earn less money than men do for the same type of work. And they also own less capital and fewer stocks compared to what men do. There is also still a problem with domestic violence, harming women disproportionately.

Max: What do you feel can be done with this in Norway?

Christoffer: Well, I think we’re doing a lot of right things already. There was a new law introduced, maybe 20 years ago now, that required all companies of a certain type to have gender representation on their boards. And that has made a big difference. It's also been copied by a lot of other countries. Then there are things to do with wages and gender roles that require constant attention. I think public debate is an important thing. Both men and women need to stand up for equality and gender rights whenever they see them being abused.

Tula: Do you think Norway could be a role model for other countries who want to improve their gender equality?

Christoffer: Yes, absolutely. As I just mentioned, there are examples of Norwegian laws that have been copied or have inspired similar types of laws in other countries. That's definitely one way of being a role model. Another is to basically have visible women leaders travel around the world in politics and in business and in sports and in other areas. So, I think there are very many ways that Norway can be a role model. But we also need to be very conscious about not being too high on ourselves and thinking that we are the best in the world, because there are still challenges within Norway, and there are areas in which other countries have things that they can teach us as well.

Tula: Do you think that gender roles could be justified from a cultural or historic perspective and in that sense serve as an explanation for inequality?

Christoffer: No, I don't think they can justify discrimination. I think they can explain them. And there are historic reasons for many discriminatory practices. But that doesn't mean that it's OK. Gender discrimination violates basic human rights. That's never really OK.

Max: Very good point, Christoffer. I think we'll have to conclude now, and I'd like to thank you for joining us and helping us answer these questions.

Christoffer: You're welcome.

Max: During this podcast, we've been discussing poverty, climate change and inequality. And now I definitely have gotten some answers, thanks to you. Thank you!

Christoffer: Thanks for having me.

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Tula: Hello, I'm Tula ...

Tula: ... and I'm Max.

Tula: ... and in this podcast, we are going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number five: Gender Equality, and goal number 10: Reduce Inequalities. The UN has stated different targets, for example, to end all forms of discrimination against all women and girls everywhere, and, in relation to goal number 10, to – by 2030 – empower and promote the social, economic, and political inclusion of all, irrespective of age, sex, disability, race, ethnicity, origin, religion, economic, or other status.

Max: OK, these goals seem somewhat different, I think. The inequality goal and the gender goal ...

Tula: Yes, they are different. It's about inequality in general, I guess.

Max: When you started talking about gender inequality, I was reminded of another episode I had while I was in India. Towards the end of my trip, I was in the south of India with a female friend of mine, and we'd been together for more or less the entire trip. And she hadn't really been by herself at all because we were recommended by both Norwegians and Indians that we stick together, at least in the evening and the night. However, one evening she was going to walk by herself and get some groceries at our local store. And I'd done this several times by myself, even in the evening and the night without having any uncomfortable experiences. She did this one time, and when she was walking towards the store, she was approached by a very unpleasant man who said quite uncomfortable things to her. Everything was OK, and she managed to get back to where we lived fine and nothing too dramatic happened. But that absolutely really made an impact on her and made an impact on me. Even though we were told that she shouldn't walk by herself, we thought that one small walk to the grocery store wouldn't really matter. After this, I really realized the gender inequality that currently exists in the majority of India, and we saw this mainly in the rural areas but also in some of the larger cities. And it really made me think that sometimes, in Norway, and probably especially as a man, we take a situation for granted.

Tula: I think so, too. What you said sounds very unfair. And sadly, I’ve heard many stories like this before. Did you ever feel afraid or uncomfortable being in the role of a protector or somewhat responsible for your friend?

Max: I don't think I was particularly afraid. It was more weird and more abnormal, really. I didn't really feel as if I had to protect her or guard her in any special way, because we'd never really been thinking like this before. And the fact that I kind of had to walk her to the store felt weird because I see us as equal. And in Norway, we were treated more equal ...

Tula: That would not happen ...

Max: Yes, exactly. And it definitely caught me off guard a little bit. It definitely made me think, at least, and often even in broad daylight, if we were in stores, she could also get uncomfortable remarks or looks. If we were to buy something at a shop from a man, he would almost always refer to me and talk to me.

Tula: Even though you're supposed to buy a dress or a skirt?

Max: Yes, actually! And then it was as if I was the one in charge and the one paying and I had most of the control, which really seemed weird, in my opinion. And if we met women, this situation was turned as well. Then they would always refer to her, and they wouldn't really look too much at me either, which really was something I thought was weird at least.

Tula: I think India is a great example of a country where gender inequality exists. Recently I watched a Swedish documentary series from India, and in this series they stated that you will never find more than 20 percent of women in a public space. And that in India, there are specific buses and trains for women only. These rules are in many cases respected by men, but sometimes we see that men don't respect these rules. I think we do see a positive shift these days as well in India, because many young Indian women are challenging these boundaries, and they have tried different specific social experiments, such as: the women in this series tried to lie down in the park without being greeted by unpleasant men, for example.

Max: In daylight?

Tula: Yes, they tried to sleep or tried to read a book or something very normal. We now see a positive change, because there are many demonstrations and stuff like that.

Max: That's interesting. And I wasn't aware of this experiment. However, I definitely noticed that there is inequality in India now.

Tula: Did you notice that there were less women in the public spaces?

Max: I didn't really think that much about it. But when you say it, I suppose usually in the main squares in a lot of cities and towns, there were usually men. I didn’t think that much about it, actually. I also learnt, while I was in India, that especially in rural communities, gender roles are more connected to a traditional way of life. They are often closely linked to religion, history, and culture. Therefore, women have had a different place in the home, as the mother of the children. I remember at least one woman explaining to me how it doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative thing with the more traditional gender roles. Even though for me and for my friend it seemed very weird, and I probably looked upon this as negative. But I'm not completely sure that all of the women in India did.

Tula: It's important that we respect other cultures. But even though we have to respect these cultures, oppression and discrimination in any forms is always wrong and bad and should be eradicated.

Max: I completely agree with you too. And I'm not really trying to defend any forms of gender oppression. It was more that it was explained to me that it doesn't always have to be a negative thing, and it's often more closely linked to culture and history than we might be aware of. Though I do believe that ending gender oppression should be a goal for all countries, regardless of both culture and history. And I think that the recent change we've seen in a lot of European countries is very positive. For example, the fact that we currently have a female prime minister and foreign minister is something that I find very cool.

Tula: And the fun thing with this that we have seen during this pandemic is that the countries with female leaders have actually dealt with the pandemic the best, such as Denmark, Germany, and Norway.

Max: I actually haven't thought about that link. Yes, that is a good point. At the faculty at my university, there was also a significant overweight of women, which is a very positive thing. I'm sure that in the future we'll see this represented in work life later as well.

Tula: Like more female leaders or bosses.

Max: It would make sense with regard to the fact that there are so many women taking higher levels of education.

Tula: Yes, and access to higher education is one of the main factors in reducing inequality in a society, and not just between genders but also between different social groups. Having said that, I think we cannot avoid talking about goal number 10, which is about reducing inequality in general.

Max: OK, and what will that consist of?

Tula: We have for example economic inequality. Especially relative inequality has been slightly reduced globally over the last years. And the economy is growing stronger in a lot of former developing countries, and things are going in the right direction. Still, we see huge differences within a lot of countries, and there's still much left to be done. This also reminds me a lot of your story from India, Max, where you could see the huge divide in Dharavi.

Max: That's definitely a good point. Mumbai is a good example where we saw vast economic inequality, very close and within the same city, which definitely puts it into perspective. However, this isn't only a problem in India. We can see the same in a lot of countries in the world and in the U.S. as well … and in Norway, in fact. I remember a couple of years ago, there was a lot of discussion about the top one percent in the United States and how they owned about 40 percent of the nation's wealth, how poorly distributed the nation's wealth was, and how difficult this would also make it for the relatively poor to climb the social ladder in that sense.

Tula: Yeah, I think so, too.

Max: We can also see a sort of similar situation in Norway, as a lot of people have stated that inequality in Norway is growing as well – as we talked about previously.

Tula: Yes, where your financial background has much more to say.

Max: Exactly, and that's also a typical argument that is used for the welfare state that we see in a lot of Scandinavian countries where the country helps fund your education, for example.

Tula: And access to cheap college education in Norway in many ways ensures that financial background isn't as important as it is in other countries. For example, the United States, where it seems as though your parent’s money becomes a lot more important.

Max: And I suppose if your parents pay for it, they'll probably have more of a say in your choice of education as well, maybe?

Tula: Yes, I think so, too. I also think it can create a weird relationship between parents and children, where the child kind of owes their parents to take a higher education.

Max: Could you relate to this?

Tula: For me, no. Because we live in Norway, we have different arrangements such as Lånekassen, which ensures that it's easy for me to choose an education that feels right for me – not right for my parents.

Max: I think the same goes for me as well. And for example, with me taking a gap year and being able to travel, it is also a privilege that I have. Probably also because my parents weren't able to stop me from doing it, perhaps. They originally were slightly against the idea, but it wasn't really up to them to make that decision. Now I'm studying, and I also rely on Lånekassen, and that probably makes them less involved in that decision.

Tula: Yes, and less concerned. It creates a more independent lifestyle for students.

Max: I actually remember an episode of Sånn er du by Harald Eia that I watched recently. He was talking a little bit about this situation, because he claimed that the role of the parent in Norway is very different from, let's say, the US, or India for that matter. Because the child doesn't really belong to the parent to the same extent. And they don't, as you said, owe their parents much of anything, really. And because the government can fund and help children, your family situation doesn't matter as much. And then, for instance, he came with an example that when they were making the American version of the Norwegian show Skam, they had to rewrite the script so that the parents were more involved in the story, because it seemed completely unrealistic to a lot of Americans that teenagers lived so independently from their parents.

Tula: I also watched that episode with Harald Eia, where he also stated that Norwegians being so independent is also an explanation for Norwegians being shy – or seem to be shy. It's just that we don't want to mind other people with our business.

Max: It is a good point, actually. It might be hard to say, which is better, I think. In a lot of ways, I think that some of the families I saw in India seemed very fond of each other, at least. And they seem to have a very good family relationship.

Tula: And it seems very cozy – for example Italian families with their grandparents and stuff, and they make pasta and pizza. It's kind of generalising, but it seems very cozy.

Max: I also talked about this, because when parents grow old in Norway, it isn't as normal for them to, as you said they do in Italy, move in with their children. They would be more likely to move into an elderly home. Which is also usually funded by the state. So then again, the parent kind of becomes the responsibility of the government, and the child still lives relatively independently from their parent.

Tula: Yes, and then again doesn't owe their parents to take care of them ...

Max: ... which sounds good. I suppose it can also be a little bit sad if you have old parents and they're alone in the retirement home. The families in India – or in Italy, for that matter – seem more connected and perhaps happier in that sense.

Tula: Yes, socially, it could be problematic, I think.

Max: Definitely.

Tula: To conclude, we can say that the views on gender roles and equality differ depending on country and culture. However, reducing inequality is a positive thing, and we feel as though that is the future.

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Tula: Hello, I’m Tula ...

Max: ... and I’m Max.

Max: And in this podcast, we’re going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number 13, which is: climate action. And on that note, I’ve found some of the targets that the UN suggests on their website. There they say that to strengthen resilience and adaptive capacity to climate-related hazards and natural disasters in all countries is one of their goals. They also say that to integrate climate change measures into national policies, strategies and planning is something that they find important.

Tula: Yes, that’s interesting. And I think it’s very time accurate to talk about climate actions these days. But also, I think it’s very weird to talk about natural disasters and climate measures without mentioning the pandemic we’re currently facing and are in the middle of right now.

Max: That is a good point.

Tula: I think the pandemic is affecting our climate actions in many ways. For example, I work in a cafe that is now performing various infection control measures due to the corona crisis. . For example, only serving coffee in takeaway cups. And we use a lot of single-use products, like different lids and plastic bags and stuff like that. Customers have complained, telling us that this is not very environmentally friendly, and in many ways, I agree with them. I think that we are in some ways stuck between two different issues, like the climate crisis versus the pandemic, where the pandemic is somewhat putting our climate actions on hold, I guess.

Max: True, and that’s an interesting story. I really hadn’t thought about that. And I see that it’s kind of a difficult position to be put in. However, I would say that since we are living in sort of a state of emergency, and since things aren’t the way they usually are, I think I’d say that the pandemic is perhaps the most important thing right now.

Tula: Yes, I guess – and our LEDs and take away cups are actually environmentally friendly in some way. They are made of different materials that are supposed to be environmentally friendly, like 50 percent at least.

Max: Which is good, and it’s good that your customers think about it. But I feel as if perhaps the pandemic should go at least slightly above environmental issues. However, I also read several places that with, kind of, a stop in the economy, our consumption has also been reduced significantly. Which is a positive result, at least for the climate. And even though the pandemic obviously isn’t a good thing, our societies are in a way on hold. It’ll be interesting to see how we re-open our societies and what our economies will look like after the pandemic. In fact, the UN had their response to COVID-19 on their websites, and they stated that the current crisis is an opportunity for a profound systemic shift to a more sustainable economy that works for both the people and the planet. So, they’re also talking about the same type of thing that when we reopen our societies, perhaps we can make a leap towards the green shift, as we are in a sense on hold. And this is perhaps a good time to make some systemic changes in at least our economies and the way we consume and produce.

Tula: Yes, and I’ve seen that the pandemic has led to a clearer air in some countries, like China and Japan, because we are not driving as much, the CO₂ is, yeah…

Max: Yes, true! And that goes for India as well. I’ve seen pictures from Delhi now where the air is clearer than it’s been for years. Well, the reason for it might be good, and it tells us something, about, perhaps, how our societies could be if we were able to reduce our consumption. And the UN also says that making more green investments and creating these new green jobs and increasing the efforts to decarbonise our economy should be the points to focus on in the future.

Tula: It really makes me wonder if our lives after this pandemic will ever be the same again. And, will the economy pre-COVID-19 be history, perhaps?

Max: Yes, that’s interesting. And I think we’ve seen, at least with history, that when crises occur, they serve as shifting points for our society in some ways.

Tula: What type of crises do you refer to?

Max: For example, if we were to talk about World War Two, which obviously wasn’t a good thing, our societies looked very different after the war. And it also led to changes in the economy and in the reopening and the rebuilding of a lot of societies and nations. They made profound changes. So, we can see both with the UN and the EU that people were able to work together and that they perhaps didn’t or weren’t able to do that before the war. That’s not a way of saying that war is a positive thing or that the pandemic is a positive thing, but it could hopefully have a long-term positive result on our societies.

Tula: With the cooperation between the different countries as well.

Max: Perhaps, for example, as this is an international pandemic, we’ve seen that we have to cooperate, and we have to work together to be able to defeat and stop the pandemic.

Tula: I’ve been thinking a lot about our previous travel habits as well, and not just mine, but for the entire world – and with business travellers as well. Do you think we will ever be taking occasional weekend trips ever again or go on backpacking trips like you did?

Max: Oh, that’s difficult. I think. As you know, I really enjoy travelling and flying, probably, and the thought of not being able to travel like we did before the pandemic seems weird, but perhaps it will be the future as well. I don’t know. Perhaps the pandemic will be a historic change, where we’ll talk about the post-COVID-19 society where we didn’t fly or travel as much as we did before. I don’t know. I think we’ve at least seen with a lot of business travellers that they’ve been able to, for example, have digital meetings instead. And I think it would be natural to assume that they will continue with this after the pandemic, as it seems to have worked well. Perhaps flying to Berlin for one meeting, and then flying back the same day, isn’t necessary, if it can be done on Zoom or some other digital platform.

Tula: Well, I agree ...

Max : And I’ve also heard a lot of people talk about these ‘airplane quotas’.

Tula: Airplane quotas – what’s that? I don’t know.

Max: Well, it’s in some ways an old concept, but it hasn’t really been implemented yet. So, what they’re discussing is putting an amount of flights we can take each year. Let’s say you could only fly three times a year, and then you’re restricted from flying any more than this, or else perhaps you’ll have to buy quotas from other people. Or nations could perhaps buy quotas from other nations, which is a very controversial suggestion. But I think it’s an interesting idea. And there are several, or at least some, political parties in Norway that have looked into the idea.

Tula: And I think it sounds like a great plan and something that could be done. But on the other hand, I think it limits our freedom in many ways.

Max: Yes, it does.

Tula: And who decides how many quotas there should be per person?

Max: Yes, it’s a controversial thing, and not to be allowed to leave the country or go on a vacation might seem weird, but it might also be the future in many ways.

Tula: Maybe there should be exceptions for different people. For example, for business travellers or for people who have family in other countries, a student studying abroad, people who have a big social network in other countries, or journalists or other specific happenings like funerals, weddings, etc.

Max: That’s also kind of a difficult thing, I think. Because if you allow some people to fly more and others to fly less, it also becomes sort of a difficult challenge, I think. If you were to be allowed to fly ten times a year, and I was only allowed to fly, let’s say, three times a year, I think It would probably feel unfair as well, even though I understand that there probably have to be some exceptions to the rule. That’s also why they talk about the fact that you can buy other people’s quotas so that if you have to go somewhere, you can purchase.

Tula: For me, it feels quite unfair that privileged people are able to buy other people’s quotas.

Max: True. That is a good point. You might end up with some people who ...

Tula: ... make their living by selling their own quotas.

Max: Exactly. And then perhaps some people wouldn’t really be able to travel at all because they couldn’t afford it and some people would. But the difficult thing with the quota system, is that they’re still developing it. However, it seems that we can’t fly as much as we previously have been , and they need to set some form of limits on our air travel. So, I still think it’s the future in a lot of ways, even though they are not really sure how to implement it.

Tula: Who do you think should make the changes? Is it up to the government, or to the individuals? Maybe that could be a solution as well.

Max: I think that’s a difficult question actually, because it is a personal choice whether you want to travel somewhere or not. The climate crisis isn’t a personal crisis – it’s a global challenge. And really, the results of the climate crisis won’t just affect you and me. It will affect everyone in the world. And if we keep on travelling without really thinking about anyone else, that would still have results.

Tula: Do you think that governments should make restrictions?

Max: I think so, because even though it will limit our freedoms slightly, it might be necessary. However, I suppose it is sort of a drastic thing to say, but how else are we going to reduce people’s emissions?

Tula: lt’s our new future.

Max: Exactly. I think, for example Norway has tried in a lot of ways to make the green shift. And I know that in 2019, Oslo was voted the climate capital of the EU, which I find to be quite cool. And it’s fun that they’re at least trying to make a change and to do something. As an example; we’ve seen all over Europe, and in Oslo as well, these electric scooters that are placed around in the city.

Tula: Yes, actually I’m not a big fan of these scooters. I don’t like them very much. I think that it could be very problematic for certain people, like for blind people or disabled people. There could be people driving these scooters when they’re drunk in the middle of the night, and I see them thrown around everywhere.

Max: That’s a good point. But they are quite practical as well, I think. And if you were potentially considering driving to, let’s say, a store to see if ...

Tula: Or I could just walk ...

Max: ... you could just walk, or you can take the scooters. I think it’s a positive thing, and it makes the scene in Oslo to be at least somewhat more climate friendly. I think it’s a positive change.

Tula: And maybe a bit more dangerous for certain people as well, but I agree.

Max: I’m sure they'll regulate it somehow, some ways in the future. Although I don’t think they’ll disappear any time shortly.

Tula: I will try one – one day. And I know that there are many problems with these electrical transportations as well, because recently I read an article in Aftenposten about electrical cars and the backside with the production of electrical cars. Electrical cars are made out of different materials, and one of these materials is called cobalt. Cobalt is a material which is found in mines, especially in Congo in Africa. And in these mines, there are actually children working. And I think it’s very problematic when the children are working instead of attending school.

Max: Yes, that’s crazy. I was not aware of that, to be honest.

Tula: No, I wasn’t aware of that as well. In the article they stated that it’s sad when our green shift is at the expense of other sustainability goals, like free access to education and etc.

Max: Because there are kids working and not being able to go to school?

Tula: Yes, they work more than they attend school.

Max: Wow. I feel like at least in the media the electric cars are presented as very positive.

Tula: Yes, but there are many downsides and stories that sort of need to be heard as well.

Max: I feel like you’re usually encouraged to buy an electric car, even though I actually wasn’t aware of that. I think it’s probably difficult for a lot of governments to make this green shift, because with a lot of things, just like the quotas on flying and with electric cars and the scooters, there are positive and there are negative aspects. However, we do know that the problem is real, at least, and even though it is difficult for the governments to make the green shift, there are things we can do.

Tula: Yes. Meanwhile, we as individuals can do many things.

Max: Do you do anything?

Tula: I try to do many things. I try to walk as much as I can. I try to cycle a lot, and I always walk to school. I try to buy less clothes and I try to reuse many of my things, recycle garbage, eat less meat, even though that’s hard for me ... Do you do anything?

Tula: I try to do several of the things that you just mentioned. However, here as well, it feels weird sometimes if, let’s say you do a lot, and I do very little. And it’s so easy to get away with. There is really no one kind of checking on whether you do certain things or not. Especially if there really are no national measures. I suppose you can really do whatever you want. For example, I was faced with an issue the other day because I usually bring a tote bag when I buy groceries, so I don’t have to take a plastic bag. But then a friend of mine told me that the production of these tote bags, and the recycling process, has a higher emission than the production of a plastic bag.

Tula: So it has a backside?

Max: It has a backside. So, in a sense, what you could actually do is to take a plastic bag when you’re at the store, and then just reuse that as much as you can – recycle that bag instead of buying it. Just like with electric cars, again I was thinking and hoping that I was doing something positive using my tote bag, but faced a challenge again, which makes you think. It really made me realise how challenging these things can be sometimes.

Tula: Yes, totally. Now my Swedish family actually told me that the plastic bags in Sweden are very expensive these days. A plastic bag costs about 50 Swedish kroner, which is a lot.

Max: Definitely. Those are the types of measures that I’m sure the UN would find very positive. I think it remains to see in the future how this will develop and what turns it will take.

Tula: I mean, they should create some tote bags that do not have a backside in production.

Max: And, however, I do believe that we can conclude that climate change is an overhanging problem, and that we will have to face this challenge in the future, regardless of whether you’re an individual or a government. We will have to do something. And it will be interesting to see what our societies will look like in this post COVID-19 world that we might be going towards shortly. It will be interesting.

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Tula: Hello, I’m Tula ...

Max: ... and I’m Max.

Tula: In this podcast, we are going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number one: no poverty.

Max: Yes, Tula, and I have heard about this goal of defeating poverty many times. However, I feel like we often talk about defeating poverty without necessarily saying how we’re going to do this. I wonder: Does the UN describe any measures that can be used to defeat poverty?

Tula: Yeah, the UN has a list of different targets, for example target 1.1, which is: by 2030 to eradicate extreme poverty for all people everywhere – currently measured as people living on less than $1,25 a day; and two: by 2030 to reduce at least by half the proportion of men, women, and children of all ages living in poverty in all its dimensions, according to national definitions. So, these two goals refer to the terms ‘absolute’ and ‘relative poverty’, which we will be discussing in this episode.

Max: And I think that’s an interesting divide you’re stating there, Tula.

Tula: Yeah, absolute and relative poverty?

Max: Yes; it is, because I knew there was poverty in the world, but then this definition of absolute poverty was actually new to me. And on that note I would like to tell you of a story I experienced while I was in India in my gap year. I went to Mumbai, and in Mumbai, we find one of the largest slum neighbourhoods on the planet, which is called Dharavi. And in Dharavi, there are over 500 000 people living, and quite possibly more. This is also the neighbourhood where the plot of the movie Slumdog Millionaire supposedly set. I was lucky enough to go there while I was in Mumbai. But visiting Dharavi really made an impact on me, because the conditions for the people living there were so much worse than I could have possibly imagined.

Tula: Oh, okay. Were there many children living there, in Dharavi?

Max: Yes, unfortunately, because there were usually a lot of children living in very small homes. And the thing about Dharavi is that the neighbourhood is located in the place in Mumbai where theneighbourhood easily floods, meaning that a lot of these houses, especially the roofs on the walls of the houses, were quite damaged. And this seemed very unfair for the children living there. And, yes, it just was new to me.

Tula: I know – I can only imagine. I have never seen anything like that before. So, it sounds very weird.

Max: And the sad thing was that right by this neighbourhood, another neighbourhood is located which is also one of the richest neighbourhoods in Mumbai. In this neighbourhood, we find the world’s most expensive private residence, which is called Antilia.

Tula: So, the residence is called ‘Antilia’? Quite a name for a residence ...

Max: And this is a 27-story private home housing one family. Seeing this home so close to the slums really felt unfair to me. I can only imagine for the children, as you mentioned, witnessing such an abundance of wealth located by their slums. It seemed crazy.

Tula: Did it change your mindset, seeing this absolute poverty, or how did it affect the rest of your journey?

Max: It did change my mindset because I had been to especially larger cities before. And in most big cities, you can find some class divides within the city. However, in Mumbai, the differences were so vast that it just felt unreal, I think. And especially the conditions in Dharavi – it just didn’t feel right. It really made me think that something probably has to be done for the people living there. And it didn’t seem right, really. Have you had any experiences like this?

Tula: I wouldn’t say that I have had an experience like you had. But like two years ago, me and my family went on a holiday trip to Sri Lanka, and we lived in the southern part of Sri Lanka. We wanted to take a weekend trip to the northern part of Sri Lanka. During this car ride we saw a lot of poverty from within the safety of a closed car. So, it was really weird seeing such extreme poverty from behind the glass window and not being able to do anything about it. We didn’t stop the car; we were just driving by. So, it was very weird for me experiencing that. It was so extreme.

Max: Was this in a rural-village-type of neighbourhood?

Tula: Yes, it was different villages. So, there were some villages that were more affected by poverty and other villages that were more normal to me, where it seemed like the sanitary conditions were better. So, it was really weird.

Max: Yes, I’ve heard a lot of stories like that. And the thing about this is that some people refer to it as a form of poverty tourism.

Tula: I don’t think that was our experience with it, but it’s definitely something that I thought about as well, yes.

Max: Because then people refer to us as ... let’s say someone from Norway goes to India to, kind of, view the poverty as an attraction. And let’s say you were to go to these rural villages as a form of amusement or to take pictures or influencer pictures, or in a way making yourself seem like more exotic, which I don’t think is a positive thing. The good thing about the slum neighbourhood in Mumbai was that when I went there, I was only allowed to a certain point into the slums. And the place I went, there were these stalls and markets and different small shops where you could buy some things and, in a sense, give back and boost the local economy. You weren’t allowed to take pictures there either, as a way of preventing this form of poverty tourism.

Tula: That sounds very good, I think. But on the other hand, I guess that it’s good if the tourism manages to help the local economy a little bit as well.

Max: Yes, that’s a good point. It is a kind of a difficult situation because witnessing, at least for me, this form of absolute poverty did make an impact on me. And I have been thinking about it since that point. So, for me, even though it was an uncomfortable experience, I think it was a good experience too. However, I see that there are negative sides to it as well.

Tula: There are definitely many negative sides. I think it’s very weird to think about – to compare relative and absolute poverty as well – as they are so different.

Max: Definitely. And relative poverty is measured relative to the local economy and geographic regions. So, for example, if we take Norway, you could be relatively poor in Norway, or even in the city in Norway, without necessarily being considered poor in India or in Mumbai, which is a weird thing because absolute poverty, as we just talked about, is very visible, usually.

Tula: Yes, I think in Norway, you could be relatively poor without other people noticing.

Max: Definitely. And sometimes that might be even worse, emotionally. And it’s definitely a social challenge as well, because you’re amongst people who have more than you, and then the feeling of having less might be even worse, I can imagine.

Tula: Maybe when it comes to different social happenings, you would maybe lie about your economy and stuff like that. So, I think there could be many social challenges with relative poverty.

Max: However, relative poverty is even more difficult to point out, I think. And here I can’t really think of that many personal experiences I’ve had with it, as it is neither as visible nor perhaps as much of a topic in the media, for example.

Tula: Oh, I agree. And I think about the current real estate prices in Norway. I definitely think that maybe it will become more visible, I guess.

Max: I’m sure, and I’ve read a lot about it in the news. Because the real estate prices in Norway vary so much, depending on whether you live in a large city or in the countryside. It also depends on what side of Norway you live, which definitely isn’t a good thing. Then you have to rely more on getting help from your parents if you are to be able to access the market, which also makes for this class divide to occur.

Tula: I can’t see myself in an apartment any day soon.

Max: No, me neither, which isn’t a good thing because then you can live in or you can end up in a state of relative poverty, because you have less than others. However, you aren’t really poor.

Tula: Yes, because your family’s economy background isn’t as fortunate as others’.

Max: Which is and feels weird to compare to, let’s say, the slums in India ...

Tula: Yes, it’s very hard ...

Max: ... because they are opposite forms of poverty and opposite challenges. And I think for someone living in in the slums of Mumbai, it probably seems like kind of a ridiculous discussion. However, relative poverty is also a real thing, and especially if we see an increase in relative poverty, that will also have a negative impact on our society.

Tula: Yes, I actually agree with you. To conclude, we can say that we have different perspectives on poverty, and it’s depending on country and different means and measures. And there’s an interesting divide between relative and absolute poverty.