Episode 2: Climate Action

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)

Tula: Hello, I’m Tula ...

Max: ... and I’m Max.

Max: And in this podcast, we’re going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number 13, which is: climate action. And on that note, I’ve found some of the targets that the UN suggests on their website. There they say that to strengthen resilience and adaptive capacity to climate-related hazards and natural disasters in all countries is one of their goals. They also say that to integrate climate change measures into national policies, strategies and planning is something that they find important.

Tula: Yes, that’s interesting. And I think it’s very time accurate to talk about climate actions these days. But also, I think it’s very weird to talk about natural disasters and climate measures without mentioning the pandemic we’re currently facing and are in the middle of right now.

Max: That is a good point.

Tula: I think the pandemic is affecting our climate actions in many ways. For example, I work in a cafe that is now performing various infection control measures due to the corona crisis. . For example, only serving coffee in takeaway cups. And we use a lot of single-use products, like different lids and plastic bags and stuff like that. Customers have complained, telling us that this is not very environmentally friendly, and in many ways, I agree with them. I think that we are in some ways stuck between two different issues, like the climate crisis versus the pandemic, where the pandemic is somewhat putting our climate actions on hold, I guess.

Max: True, and that’s an interesting story. I really hadn’t thought about that. And I see that it’s kind of a difficult position to be put in. However, I would say that since we are living in sort of a state of emergency, and since things aren’t the way they usually are, I think I’d say that the pandemic is perhaps the most important thing right now.

Tula: Yes, I guess – and our LEDs and take away cups are actually environmentally friendly in some way. They are made of different materials that are supposed to be environmentally friendly, like 50 percent at least.

Max: Which is good, and it’s good that your customers think about it. But I feel as if perhaps the pandemic should go at least slightly above environmental issues. However, I also read several places that with, kind of, a stop in the economy, our consumption has also been reduced significantly. Which is a positive result, at least for the climate. And even though the pandemic obviously isn’t a good thing, our societies are in a way on hold. It’ll be interesting to see how we re-open our societies and what our economies will look like after the pandemic. In fact, the UN had their response to COVID-19 on their websites, and they stated that the current crisis is an opportunity for a profound systemic shift to a more sustainable economy that works for both the people and the planet. So, they’re also talking about the same type of thing that when we reopen our societies, perhaps we can make a leap towards the green shift, as we are in a sense on hold. And this is perhaps a good time to make some systemic changes in at least our economies and the way we consume and produce.

Tula: Yes, and I’ve seen that the pandemic has led to a clearer air in some countries, like China and Japan, because we are not driving as much, the CO₂ is, yeah…

Max: Yes, true! And that goes for India as well. I’ve seen pictures from Delhi now where the air is clearer than it’s been for years. Well, the reason for it might be good, and it tells us something, about, perhaps, how our societies could be if we were able to reduce our consumption. And the UN also says that making more green investments and creating these new green jobs and increasing the efforts to decarbonise our economy should be the points to focus on in the future.

Tula: It really makes me wonder if our lives after this pandemic will ever be the same again. And, will the economy pre-COVID-19 be history, perhaps?

Max: Yes, that’s interesting. And I think we’ve seen, at least with history, that when crises occur, they serve as shifting points for our society in some ways.

Tula: What type of crises do you refer to?

Max: For example, if we were to talk about World War Two, which obviously wasn’t a good thing, our societies looked very different after the war. And it also led to changes in the economy and in the reopening and the rebuilding of a lot of societies and nations. They made profound changes. So, we can see both with the UN and the EU that people were able to work together and that they perhaps didn’t or weren’t able to do that before the war. That’s not a way of saying that war is a positive thing or that the pandemic is a positive thing, but it could hopefully have a long-term positive result on our societies.

Tula: With the cooperation between the different countries as well.

Max: Perhaps, for example, as this is an international pandemic, we’ve seen that we have to cooperate, and we have to work together to be able to defeat and stop the pandemic.

Tula: I’ve been thinking a lot about our previous travel habits as well, and not just mine, but for the entire world – and with business travellers as well. Do you think we will ever be taking occasional weekend trips ever again or go on backpacking trips like you did?

Max: Oh, that’s difficult. I think. As you know, I really enjoy travelling and flying, probably, and the thought of not being able to travel like we did before the pandemic seems weird, but perhaps it will be the future as well. I don’t know. Perhaps the pandemic will be a historic change, where we’ll talk about the post-COVID-19 society where we didn’t fly or travel as much as we did before. I don’t know. I think we’ve at least seen with a lot of business travellers that they’ve been able to, for example, have digital meetings instead. And I think it would be natural to assume that they will continue with this after the pandemic, as it seems to have worked well. Perhaps flying to Berlin for one meeting, and then flying back the same day, isn’t necessary, if it can be done on Zoom or some other digital platform.

Tula: Well, I agree ...

Max : And I’ve also heard a lot of people talk about these ‘airplane quotas’.

Tula: Airplane quotas – what’s that? I don’t know.

Max: Well, it’s in some ways an old concept, but it hasn’t really been implemented yet. So, what they’re discussing is putting an amount of flights we can take each year. Let’s say you could only fly three times a year, and then you’re restricted from flying any more than this, or else perhaps you’ll have to buy quotas from other people. Or nations could perhaps buy quotas from other nations, which is a very controversial suggestion. But I think it’s an interesting idea. And there are several, or at least some, political parties in Norway that have looked into the idea.

Tula: And I think it sounds like a great plan and something that could be done. But on the other hand, I think it limits our freedom in many ways.

Max: Yes, it does.

Tula: And who decides how many quotas there should be per person?

Max: Yes, it’s a controversial thing, and not to be allowed to leave the country or go on a vacation might seem weird, but it might also be the future in many ways.

Tula: Maybe there should be exceptions for different people. For example, for business travellers or for people who have family in other countries, a student studying abroad, people who have a big social network in other countries, or journalists or other specific happenings like funerals, weddings, etc.

Max: That’s also kind of a difficult thing, I think. Because if you allow some people to fly more and others to fly less, it also becomes sort of a difficult challenge, I think. If you were to be allowed to fly ten times a year, and I was only allowed to fly, let’s say, three times a year, I think It would probably feel unfair as well, even though I understand that there probably have to be some exceptions to the rule. That’s also why they talk about the fact that you can buy other people’s quotas so that if you have to go somewhere, you can purchase.

Tula: For me, it feels quite unfair that privileged people are able to buy other people’s quotas.

Max: True. That is a good point. You might end up with some people who ...

Tula: ... make their living by selling their own quotas.

Max: Exactly. And then perhaps some people wouldn’t really be able to travel at all because they couldn’t afford it and some people would. But the difficult thing with the quota system, is that they’re still developing it. However, it seems that we can’t fly as much as we previously have been , and they need to set some form of limits on our air travel. So, I still think it’s the future in a lot of ways, even though they are not really sure how to implement it.

Tula: Who do you think should make the changes? Is it up to the government, or to the individuals? Maybe that could be a solution as well.

Max: I think that’s a difficult question actually, because it is a personal choice whether you want to travel somewhere or not. The climate crisis isn’t a personal crisis – it’s a global challenge. And really, the results of the climate crisis won’t just affect you and me. It will affect everyone in the world. And if we keep on travelling without really thinking about anyone else, that would still have results.

Tula: Do you think that governments should make restrictions?

Max: I think so, because even though it will limit our freedoms slightly, it might be necessary. However, I suppose it is sort of a drastic thing to say, but how else are we going to reduce people’s emissions?

Tula: lt’s our new future.

Max: Exactly. I think, for example Norway has tried in a lot of ways to make the green shift. And I know that in 2019, Oslo was voted the climate capital of the EU, which I find to be quite cool. And it’s fun that they’re at least trying to make a change and to do something. As an example; we’ve seen all over Europe, and in Oslo as well, these electric scooters that are placed around in the city.

Tula: Yes, actually I’m not a big fan of these scooters. I don’t like them very much. I think that it could be very problematic for certain people, like for blind people or disabled people. There could be people driving these scooters when they’re drunk in the middle of the night, and I see them thrown around everywhere.

Max: That’s a good point. But they are quite practical as well, I think. And if you were potentially considering driving to, let’s say, a store to see if ...

Tula: Or I could just walk ...

Max: ... you could just walk, or you can take the scooters. I think it’s a positive thing, and it makes the scene in Oslo to be at least somewhat more climate friendly. I think it’s a positive change.

Tula: And maybe a bit more dangerous for certain people as well, but I agree.

Max: I’m sure they'll regulate it somehow, some ways in the future. Although I don’t think they’ll disappear any time shortly.

Tula: I will try one – one day. And I know that there are many problems with these electrical transportations as well, because recently I read an article in Aftenposten about electrical cars and the backside with the production of electrical cars. Electrical cars are made out of different materials, and one of these materials is called cobalt. Cobalt is a material which is found in mines, especially in Congo in Africa. And in these mines, there are actually children working. And I think it’s very problematic when the children are working instead of attending school.

Max: Yes, that’s crazy. I was not aware of that, to be honest.

Tula: No, I wasn’t aware of that as well. In the article they stated that it’s sad when our green shift is at the expense of other sustainability goals, like free access to education and etc.

Max: Because there are kids working and not being able to go to school?

Tula: Yes, they work more than they attend school.

Max: Wow. I feel like at least in the media the electric cars are presented as very positive.

Tula: Yes, but there are many downsides and stories that sort of need to be heard as well.

Max: I feel like you’re usually encouraged to buy an electric car, even though I actually wasn’t aware of that. I think it’s probably difficult for a lot of governments to make this green shift, because with a lot of things, just like the quotas on flying and with electric cars and the scooters, there are positive and there are negative aspects. However, we do know that the problem is real, at least, and even though it is difficult for the governments to make the green shift, there are things we can do.

Tula: Yes. Meanwhile, we as individuals can do many things.

Max: Do you do anything?

Tula: I try to do many things. I try to walk as much as I can. I try to cycle a lot, and I always walk to school. I try to buy less clothes and I try to reuse many of my things, recycle garbage, eat less meat, even though that’s hard for me ... Do you do anything?

Tula: I try to do several of the things that you just mentioned. However, here as well, it feels weird sometimes if, let’s say you do a lot, and I do very little. And it’s so easy to get away with. There is really no one kind of checking on whether you do certain things or not. Especially if there really are no national measures. I suppose you can really do whatever you want. For example, I was faced with an issue the other day because I usually bring a tote bag when I buy groceries, so I don’t have to take a plastic bag. But then a friend of mine told me that the production of these tote bags, and the recycling process, has a higher emission than the production of a plastic bag.

Tula: So it has a backside?

Max: It has a backside. So, in a sense, what you could actually do is to take a plastic bag when you’re at the store, and then just reuse that as much as you can – recycle that bag instead of buying it. Just like with electric cars, again I was thinking and hoping that I was doing something positive using my tote bag, but faced a challenge again, which makes you think. It really made me realise how challenging these things can be sometimes.

Tula: Yes, totally. Now my Swedish family actually told me that the plastic bags in Sweden are very expensive these days. A plastic bag costs about 50 Swedish kroner, which is a lot.

Max: Definitely. Those are the types of measures that I’m sure the UN would find very positive. I think it remains to see in the future how this will develop and what turns it will take.

Tula: I mean, they should create some tote bags that do not have a backside in production.

Max: And, however, I do believe that we can conclude that climate change is an overhanging problem, and that we will have to face this challenge in the future, regardless of whether you’re an individual or a government. We will have to do something. And it will be interesting to see what our societies will look like in this post COVID-19 world that we might be going towards shortly. It will be interesting.