South Africa

Host = Nicholas CarlieZB = Zanele Baqwa

Host: Hello, my name is Nicholas Carlie. I’m a former journalist for Norwegian Broadcasting and work as a schoolteacher. In this podcast series, we will explore democracy in several English-speaking countries, to try to get a better understanding of how they work and what, if any, threats they face.

Host: Today I will be speaking with Zanele Baqwa, a retired activist and psychiatrist actually from South Africa. Welcome, Zanele. How are you today?

ZB: I’m cool, I’m cool, thank you.

Host: It’s nice to have you here. Tell me a little bit about your background and your experience with South Africa, and politics in South Africa, that is what we will be looking closely at today.

ZB: Yes, where does one start? When you’re born as a black South African child, you’re already into politics, I’m telling you, because they’re going to impact on you the minute your awareness is raised. And then when I was 16, I refused to take a photograph of me. I was doing ‘videregående’ then, matriculation, and that was in Durban, in Marion Hill, where Steve Biko of the Black Consciousness Movement went also. And my husband to be, I didn’t know him then, was also at the same college, Marion Hill. I refused to take a picture for a pass, because we, women then, were supposed to carry identity passes. And then I was, of course, called to the principal’s office and all the staff and the special branch that is the wing of the police for the apartheid government, they were questioning me if I was a communist or not, 16 years old then, that was around ‘64, ‘62, yeah. Anyway, in ‘65, because I had been also in the company of many friends of mine in Soweto – I grew up in Soweto, in Meadowlands – I had friends who were members of the African National Congress, but I wasn’t a member then. I joined the African National Congress in ‘65, when I decided to skip the country, and join the liberation movement.

Host: Okay, but that meant you had to leave your home?

ZB: I had to leave my home, because already the police were coming to my house to look for me.

Host: Hmm. Tell me a little bit about growing up with apartheid and what was it actually physically? Is it as bad as we’ve heard?

ZB: Oh, man! I think I’m still having that feeling from those times, it has layered itself into my body. The pain of seeing black people being maltreated. The difficulty for people to own their homes, because of the 1913 Land Act. It was called the Native Land Act, where 7%, it was 1913, 7% of the population that was white owned, got permission to own, 87% of the land. And that’s why, even today in South Africa, now the land question is a big, big deal.

Host: It’s still a big wound on the soul of South Africa, isn’t this? Land ownership and land rights.

ZB: Right. Because that has to do with economic emancipation, yeah. So, they didn’t own, most of our mothers were working, bringing up white kids in the white suburbs. People had to leave the suburbs at a certain time because they were not allowed to be in town. It was really just like, what you call it in America, the civil rights – the Jim Crow.

Host: Right, the Jim Crow laws.

ZB: Laws yes, but it was more institutionalised.

Host: Yes, and they were official? It wasn’t a street law; it was actually government.

ZB: Yes, in 1948. That is when the apartheid government was formed, in 1948.

Host: And I was going to say, why? Why did they implement apartheid? But already I can hear that there’s obviously an economical incentive here.

ZB: Labor – cheap labor, cheap labour. You know, in 1867, diamonds were discovered in South Africa. And in 1870, was it? Something like that, around that time, gold was discovered. And these two minerals were like, I’m telling you, the incentive for these colonial settlers to really set in the institutions more aggressively and more militarily in a way, to take complete control of South Africa.

Host: And to just steal from South Africa, pretty much?

ZB: They took it by force. Yes, they stole actually. Even now, we are complaining, that’s also why part of the economy is not working, that’s why the economy is not working. The Anglo-American mining companies now are transferring illegally their profits globally out of the country. So, we don’t see any benefits of those profits they make.

Host: Let us fast forward now to the early nineties. The movement doesn’t begin then, but it starts to gain traction, it starts to gain traction internationally as well. What did it feel like for you in the early nineties, looking at South Africa and hearing the news and seeing the changes starting to grow?ZB: I was in Norway then, obviously because I was a refugee in 1965, I came to Norway. So, my connection with South Africa was still organic. I was still a member of the organisations; it was the ANC and the Black Consciousness movement and then I was also in contact with the different comrades. I remember Madiba [Nelson Mandela] was elected president in 1994. By the way, when he was elected president, he promised the people a better life. And, also to deliver the basic demands that the ANC paper of 1955, which was called, the what now, The Freedom Charter. You know; ‘the land shall belong to the people, they shall own this, they shall be free for this and this’. And it’s all in the constitution. He promised a better life, and I remember Tutu singing around, hopping around, pleasing the people, and being glad and hopeful. Talking about Rainbow Nation. There was euphoria. Everybody was looking forward, regardless of the losses incurred by the majority, because of the negotiated settlement which cemented the property relations.

Host: How does South Africa choose a leader, a president? What is the system like? Technically, if we could just be technical for a few minutes here. What is South African democracy?

ZB: Yeah, how do I answer that then? I think I’m going to ...

Host: Could you become president?

ZB: Anybody can be president. But I think you have to belong to the majority party.

Host: Of which there are ... large parties?

ZB: More than 50, man. The most important ones are there also, like, the majority party being the African National Congress. Since 1994, it has been the ruling party, the dominant party. Actually, they call South Africa a one-party dominant state.

Host: Right, and what are they doing that keeps getting them all these votes?

ZB: It’s that emotional connection, the umbilical cord. But right now, it’s changing. Right now, in 2022, they are just getting, like, less than 30% of the votes, when in 1999, they had more than 66%, more than two thirds.

Host: That’s quite dramatic.

ZB: They could have changed the constitution then if they wanted. They should have fixed the land question then, but they didn’t. So, that is the most important party, and then there’s this big one, the Democratic Alliance, which is number, the second one. Which is basically, people feel it represents white monopoly capital still, because it comes from that historical connection. Even though now many, many blacks are leaders of it and they join it. And then there’s this great young, we call them Young Lions, who call themselves the Economic Freedom Fighters, EFF. They are the greatest, or the biggest, let me say, competitors to the ANC government. Because their leaders also come from the Youth League of the ANC.

Host: So, is this the future, maybe, of South African politics coming up here?

ZB: I don’t…The future is the youth, there’s no doubt about it. And most of the youth is invested in the EFF, but also there’s youth invested in both the other two parties. So that’s where democracy now is fun! For the first time, even if it has failed, like my young grandson said, as I asked him what he would say to me about what a young boy of sixteen could say to me, to anybody, when asked about democracy in South Africa, because he said that ‘democracy in South Africa is failing as our government is failing to work with the people to address issues of public concern. For the South African government neglects its citizens’. He’s sixteen years. He was born in 2005. So, this generation, and a few years above them, are becoming smooth, are becoming smarter, they are maturing. Yeah, 28 years into our democracy now, they are maturing. They’re understanding the politics of South Africa. They are the ones who are going to change the way the system functions today, so that the tables are going to be toppled. There’s no doubt about it. ANC is very worried. They are busy looking introspectively to find out why they are losing voters.

Host: Can I also ask you who is policing the government? Is there an independent system to police the government and make sure that ...

ZB: That’s where it’s not working, that’s where it’s not working. The parliament, the National Parliament, comprising 400 members in the legislative assembly based in Cape Town, as it always was. It’s not very functional. I think it comes from the proportional representation that is the electoral system of South Africa today. You don’t choose the people who represent you in the national assembly.

Host: You don’t choose individuals?

ZB: You don’t choose individuals. It’s a listing, a party listing, system. And there are two ballots, according to the parties, one national - during election time - one national ANC, EFF, Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front, all Christian Democratic Party, United Democratic movement bla, bla, bla. They are listed, and then there’s also a provincial listing at the same time. The provincial legislation is a mini copy of the national one. They also have all the rights in the national that they can perform provincially. And then, from the main party that wins the election, comes the president.Host: Chosen internally in the party?

ZB: Chosen internally in the party.

Host: So, it’s not so much a competition of personality then, that we could see in other democratic countries?

ZB: No, I think it is like the British system, isn’t it? It’s not like the American where the president is elected by the people. The British system is just like that, it’s the party that decides who is going to be.

Host: So, whatever party wins, whoever has that job already will kind of get the seat.

ZB: Yes, the leader of the party becomes the leader of the government in the state.

Host: But this frustration with being neglected by the government... This is something that obviously will lead to change because frustration usually does – especially in a country with the history of South Africa has of not accepting injustice forever.

ZB: I mean, in March this year [2022], the World Bank listed South Africa as the most unequal nation in the world.

Host: Wow!

ZB: Despite our Constitution, which was adored by the entire world as a miracle. You know, then you wonder why people, somehow there’s such a game of mirrors, I don’t know. Anyway, it’s terribly unequal. The people are aware of it. Poverty is increasing, crime ... The mother to this little one, the mother of my grandson – when I asked her what she would say about democracy, today, in South Africa today, she said; ‘All it brought us was inequality and crime.’

Host: Right.

ZB: Because there’s unemployment, which is over 70%. 70% of the youth are not working. Imagine between the ages of 15. Oh, my God what is happening to my country? Cry the beloved country, I say. It’s sad. So, there’s going to be change, there’s no doubt about it. It will be by the ballot. But right now, there has been for the last five years or so, demonstrations, riots, insurrections ...Host: How are these received by the government as far as freedom of speech and expression, and all these values that Western democracies claim to hold dear but still struggle with? What is it like now? Could I, as a young South African, have a voice? Could I be critical of my government?

ZB: Yeah, that is the jewel in all this democratic mud, that South Africa has freedom of speech to that level, that the media can just go and wallow in whatever directions they want to. And the people could say whatever they want to, regardless, whether it’s hate-speech or speech that would be denoted as inciting violence and all that. It’s almost like Norway. Here we are looking at SIAN, you know this little Nazi-like group, and they claim freedom of speech. In South Africa, there are young Afrikaner and Nazi-like groups that also claim the same. So, freedom of speech is there, and it’s working well. The government doesn’t do anything to stop that gap.

Host: Which means that a young girl critical of her government, now many years after you were, she does not have to leave South Africa in the way that you did? She could probably stay there. So, we have a young democracy which is imperfect, but hopeful?

ZB: Yes, there have to be, there have to be understandings. Yes, something African must get in. And what is that? You know, I think we have been so distorted as a cultural people, our own culture has sort of disintegrated within all of this. We’re trying to define ourselves at the same time that we are not able to find a path that would carry the soul of the African into these new democracies that Africa is experiencing. Needs philosophers too, you know.

Host: Thank you so much for your time.