Episode 1: Poverty

(In the transcript we have tried to stay as close to what is said as possible but some alterations have been made in order to aid clarity.)Tula: Hello, I’m Tula ...

Max: ... and I’m Max.

Tula: In this podcast, we are going to talk about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and our thoughts and experiences around these topics. The topic of this episode will be goal number one: no poverty.

Max: Yes, Tula, and I have heard about this goal of defeating poverty many times. However, I feel like we often talk about defeating poverty without necessarily saying how we’re going to do this. I wonder: Does the UN describe any measures that can be used to defeat poverty?

Tula: Yeah, the UN has a list of different targets, for example target 1.1, which is: by 2030 to eradicate extreme poverty for all people everywhere – currently measured as people living on less than $1,25 a day; and two: by 2030 to reduce at least by half the proportion of men, women, and children of all ages living in poverty in all its dimensions, according to national definitions. So, these two goals refer to the terms ‘absolute’ and ‘relative poverty’, which we will be discussing in this episode.

Max: And I think that’s an interesting divide you’re stating there, Tula.

Tula: Yeah, absolute and relative poverty?

Max: Yes; it is, because I knew there was poverty in the world, but then this definition of absolute poverty was actually new to me. And on that note I would like to tell you of a story I experienced while I was in India in my gap year. I went to Mumbai, and in Mumbai, we find one of the largest slum neighbourhoods on the planet, which is called Dharavi. And in Dharavi, there are over 500 000 people living, and quite possibly more. This is also the neighbourhood where the plot of the movie Slumdog Millionaire supposedly set. I was lucky enough to go there while I was in Mumbai. But visiting Dharavi really made an impact on me, because the conditions for the people living there were so much worse than I could have possibly imagined.

Tula: Oh, okay. Were there many children living there, in Dharavi?

Max: Yes, unfortunately, because there were usually a lot of children living in very small homes. And the thing about Dharavi is that the neighbourhood is located in the place in Mumbai where theneighbourhood easily floods, meaning that a lot of these houses, especially the roofs on the walls of the houses, were quite damaged. And this seemed very unfair for the children living there. And, yes, it just was new to me.

Tula: I know – I can only imagine. I have never seen anything like that before. So, it sounds very weird.

Max: And the sad thing was that right by this neighbourhood, another neighbourhood is located which is also one of the richest neighbourhoods in Mumbai. In this neighbourhood, we find the world’s most expensive private residence, which is called Antilia.

Tula: So, the residence is called ‘Antilia’? Quite a name for a residence ...

Max: And this is a 27-story private home housing one family. Seeing this home so close to the slums really felt unfair to me. I can only imagine for the children, as you mentioned, witnessing such an abundance of wealth located by their slums. It seemed crazy.

Tula: Did it change your mindset, seeing this absolute poverty, or how did it affect the rest of your journey?

Max: It did change my mindset because I had been to especially larger cities before. And in most big cities, you can find some class divides within the city. However, in Mumbai, the differences were so vast that it just felt unreal, I think. And especially the conditions in Dharavi – it just didn’t feel right. It really made me think that something probably has to be done for the people living there. And it didn’t seem right, really. Have you had any experiences like this?

Tula: I wouldn’t say that I have had an experience like you had. But like two years ago, me and my family went on a holiday trip to Sri Lanka, and we lived in the southern part of Sri Lanka. We wanted to take a weekend trip to the northern part of Sri Lanka. During this car ride we saw a lot of poverty from within the safety of a closed car. So, it was really weird seeing such extreme poverty from behind the glass window and not being able to do anything about it. We didn’t stop the car; we were just driving by. So, it was very weird for me experiencing that. It was so extreme.

Max: Was this in a rural-village-type of neighbourhood?

Tula: Yes, it was different villages. So, there were some villages that were more affected by poverty and other villages that were more normal to me, where it seemed like the sanitary conditions were better. So, it was really weird.

Max: Yes, I’ve heard a lot of stories like that. And the thing about this is that some people refer to it as a form of poverty tourism.

Tula: I don’t think that was our experience with it, but it’s definitely something that I thought about as well, yes.

Max: Because then people refer to us as ... let’s say someone from Norway goes to India to, kind of, view the poverty as an attraction. And let’s say you were to go to these rural villages as a form of amusement or to take pictures or influencer pictures, or in a way making yourself seem like more exotic, which I don’t think is a positive thing. The good thing about the slum neighbourhood in Mumbai was that when I went there, I was only allowed to a certain point into the slums. And the place I went, there were these stalls and markets and different small shops where you could buy some things and, in a sense, give back and boost the local economy. You weren’t allowed to take pictures there either, as a way of preventing this form of poverty tourism.

Tula: That sounds very good, I think. But on the other hand, I guess that it’s good if the tourism manages to help the local economy a little bit as well.

Max: Yes, that’s a good point. It is a kind of a difficult situation because witnessing, at least for me, this form of absolute poverty did make an impact on me. And I have been thinking about it since that point. So, for me, even though it was an uncomfortable experience, I think it was a good experience too. However, I see that there are negative sides to it as well.

Tula: There are definitely many negative sides. I think it’s very weird to think about – to compare relative and absolute poverty as well – as they are so different.

Max: Definitely. And relative poverty is measured relative to the local economy and geographic regions. So, for example, if we take Norway, you could be relatively poor in Norway, or even in the city in Norway, without necessarily being considered poor in India or in Mumbai, which is a weird thing because absolute poverty, as we just talked about, is very visible, usually.

Tula: Yes, I think in Norway, you could be relatively poor without other people noticing.

Max: Definitely. And sometimes that might be even worse, emotionally. And it’s definitely a social challenge as well, because you’re amongst people who have more than you, and then the feeling of having less might be even worse, I can imagine.

Tula: Maybe when it comes to different social happenings, you would maybe lie about your economy and stuff like that. So, I think there could be many social challenges with relative poverty.

Max: However, relative poverty is even more difficult to point out, I think. And here I can’t really think of that many personal experiences I’ve had with it, as it is neither as visible nor perhaps as much of a topic in the media, for example.

Tula: Oh, I agree. And I think about the current real estate prices in Norway. I definitely think that maybe it will become more visible, I guess.

Max: I’m sure, and I’ve read a lot about it in the news. Because the real estate prices in Norway vary so much, depending on whether you live in a large city or in the countryside. It also depends on what side of Norway you live, which definitely isn’t a good thing. Then you have to rely more on getting help from your parents if you are to be able to access the market, which also makes for this class divide to occur.

Tula: I can’t see myself in an apartment any day soon.

Max: No, me neither, which isn’t a good thing because then you can live in or you can end up in a state of relative poverty, because you have less than others. However, you aren’t really poor.

Tula: Yes, because your family’s economy background isn’t as fortunate as others’.

Max: Which is and feels weird to compare to, let’s say, the slums in India ...

Tula: Yes, it’s very hard ...

Max: ... because they are opposite forms of poverty and opposite challenges. And I think for someone living in in the slums of Mumbai, it probably seems like kind of a ridiculous discussion. However, relative poverty is also a real thing, and especially if we see an increase in relative poverty, that will also have a negative impact on our society.

Tula: Yes, I actually agree with you. To conclude, we can say that we have different perspectives on poverty, and it’s depending on country and different means and measures. And there’s an interesting divide between relative and absolute poverty.